Saturday 16th December 2017
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Thursday links

  • These Soviet-era bus stops are really something. (Colossal)
  • Here are all the movies and TV shows affected by sexual misconduct allegations. (Vulture)
  • And, relatedly, John Oliver going off on Dustin Hoffman is just tremendous. (Flavorwire)
  • And again, relatedly: good on Time magazine. (Elle)
  • Your morning pretty. (Atlas Obscura)
Posted on December 7th, 2017 37 Comments

37 Responses

  1. gk2829 says:

    I live in the middle of nowhere and while, I have friends who live in New York and in LA, I knew about the rumors concerning the sexual misconduct among quite a number of these men….. How did the people who employ these guys not know? My guess (like a lot of others) is they didn’t want to know…..

  2. Sue K. says:

    I’m happy to see these creeps are being called out and ostracized, but when movies and shows are stopped I wonder about the other people who are involved with those projects. When they kill off a character or write them out, at least the other people, who are hopefully fine people, have their time and energy respected. I worry about collateral damage. I’d be really interested to hear what you folks think about that issue as I know you are thoughtful and intelligent.

    • Mamavalveeta03 says:

      I hadn’t really considered that, Sue K., but it does make me wonder if there is an avenue in Civil Court for recompense from the assaulters/harassers in question. They should be held accountable for their actions. But, then again, what about those that knew and did nothing?

  3. Viajera says:

    I find myself rather disgruntled this morning … I am not on board with people telling Franken to go. From what I have seen so far, it is some fairly minor stuff. (I will now go read DiFi’s statement – I am told there is one — bc maybe I missed out on something actually bad.)(No, I won’t be here today to get into a whole thing about “forcible attempts to kiss” or what-all. This is what i half-heard coming out of the telly. But I’ll come by again later.)

    And my senators are usually so reliable! What is going on? If they are doing it out of need to look impartial, I predict that it will gain them nothing much.

    • Viajera says:

      Well based on my extensive research of reading one sfgate online piece … I am (provisionally, you understand … bc I have stuff to dooooo ) calling b*llsh*t.

      DiFi just tweeted. There’s, like, nothing there to chew on. The “number” of complaints? But they are complaining about pretty minor stuff!

      We have to do this to encourage people to come forward???? Sorry, not a good enough reason to be un-just to someone.

      There’s an investigation and a process for all this. We have institutions for a f*cking reason. Let them work.

      • Viajera says:

        In the spirit of nitpicking that has broken out, I call myself out for unjustifiable hyphenation, and I condemn myself to not posting here any more for at least a few hours.

        Also I am barely passing the little quizzes today.

    • Heather says:

      Yeah…. I’m feeling increasingly uncomfortable with all this, especially the puritanical and sex-negative tones. A legislator from Texas was being publicly shamed for sending a dick pic — to a woman he was dating while legally separated from his wife. Not that she wanted the dick pic (does any woman?), but to conflate that with sexual assault is troubling.

      There are few places I’d feel comfortable admitting this. I’d be interested in having a dialogue about it with other women who identify as liberal feminists.

      In response to Viajera – I’m wondering if Warren and Schumer are spearheading the push to get Franken to resign because they want to run in 2020?

      • Julie Lee says:

        I’ve been following this on and off, but isn’t there a picture of him grabbing Tweeden’s breasts while she is asleep? Touching someone without consent, having a friend take a picture of it, and showing that picture to others doesn’t seem like something that should be dismissed. Am I missing something?

        • Heather says:

          I don’t feel like I have enough info on the Franken issue yet to decide how I feel about it. It’s more a general unease with the entire shitshow. Full disclosure, I’m in an unusual position in that the worst harassment I ever experienced was from a female boss. So the whole situation is just stirring up a lot of stuff for me.

          • Julie Lee says:

            I’m sorry to hear that. No one should have to feel harassed at work by their boss regardless of gender. Hopefully all this scandal will bring a substantial amount of progress for the better. I suppose things have to get messy in order for change to happen.

            I do agree that we are blurring the lines a bit on what is acceptable between consenting adults. If a guy wants to send a dick pic to his girlfriend it’s really none of the public’s business. Funny how that isn’t ok, but dating an under age girl is fine for a judge. The inconsistency blows my mind. Ok, I’ll stop now…..I’m all ranty today.

          • S. says:

            I was a brand-new PhD in my first year as a real professor when my female department chair gave me a negative evaluation for not being “maternal enough” with my students. That and similar events during that time were far more traumatic for me than anything I’ve experienced from a male. Not that there isn’t massive, horrible stuff happening at the grabbing hands of men all over the place, including to me (in a minor way), of course. But the most degraded I ever felt as a woman, at work, was from another woman.

            Just thinking about all that stuff makes me want a xanax.

          • Maggie says:

            As a former female boss, I found out very quickly how much pre-judgment I received from my staff based on their previous negative experiences with other female bosses. If a person has a bad male boss, they don’t tend to come to the conclusion that men make bad bosses. We are just so used to forgiving men for mistakes or bad behavior in our society.

            When people have bad experiences with a female boss, they make all kinds of crazy assumptions that all female bosses tend to be a certain way. My staff was really candid about how surprised they were that I was great to work with, because they hadn’t found that with previous “lady bosses.” And the thing is, I was a bad boss. The reason they liked me was that I was a pushover who let them get away with slacking off and making a lot of errors. If I had tried to be an actual boss who asserted more authority, I’m sure I would have wound up on their terrible lady bosses list.

        • Dana D says:

          I agree with you that the picture was awful. I would feel violated and diminished if that happened to me. It was juvenile. Sadly, some men behave this way.

          If the dems are saying that there will be zero tolerance, then I think that that makes this all quite simple. Public figures, especially, should have the sense to know that women (people) deserve to be treated with dignity 100% of the time.

          And we are talking about sexual harassment here, not women bosses who behave very badly in other ways. My colleagues and I take a mandatory sexual harassment training EVERY YEAR to be REMINDED of what it looks, sounds and feels like.

          Trump has lowered the bar for everyone, and I, for one, think it sucks.

          • Mamavalveeta03 says:

            Thank you, Dana! I get very uncomfortable with the notion that “women make bad bosses.” It’s not true for me at all. We shouldn’t fall into the patriarchal trap of believing a stereotype

          • DeDe says:

            Thank you for this, Dana.

            Regardless of what women bosses do or don’t do (and I’ve had a few bad ones myself – people are people, after all), sexual harassment is sexual harassment. The consequences don’t have to be the same across the board, obviously, since every incident is different, but there have to be consequences. And I’m saying this as someone who has done both rape crisis and domestic violence shelter work, both on a paid and unpaid basis.

          • Elle says:

            ^^^ This right here ^^^.

        • Mamavalveeta03 says:

          Yes, Julie Lee. I think you have a valid point. So, does it matter if a man has done it to one woman, or only multiple women? I believe one should count. Punishment, or as I always said to my kids, consequences…I don’t know how I feel about that yet.

          • EmilyD says:

            I would also like to cast aspersion on the idea that women make bad bosses. I’ve had woman bosses most of my career, but I’ve also had stints working for men, and I marvel at the way people insist men are “no bullshit.” Oh my Lord, propping up a dude’s ego is a full-time job in and of itself! Not even talking about sexual harassment, which I am very grateful to have never dealt with. But surely other women know the feeling of being forced to play Mary Tyler Moore to some guy’s Lou Grant. On the soundstage of his mind.

          • Julie Lee says:

            I know that I have stricter views on this. I work in HR and I feel that everyone needs to be heard. I also find it strange that people justify Franken’s photo as joking around. I had an employee try and accuse someone that was well liked of harassment and no one believed her and she ended up quitting. Later we found out about some past problems with other places he had worked. What message are we sending if a victim with photo evidence is not taken seriously? Does that mean that women need to evaluate how respected the man is and then make a choice to come forward? Isn’t that what we are essentially trying to stop from happening now? I realize that there might be false claims, but this woman has photo evidence. I also think as a woman and democrat that we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the republicans that justify Trump and Moore. Otherwise we are just as much the problem as they are. I am an advocate for women first before political party.

          • Elle says:


    • c.w. says:

      Last night on MSNBC they reported that Franken planned to stay until one particular woman made a complaint. They didn’t know who the woman was or what she said, but her coming forward seemed to change his mind about leaving which leads me to assume (and I’m only assuming!!!) that she was one person he couldn’t “dismiss.” I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS FACTUAL–I’m just repeating what I heard on MSNBC. Franken is supposed to make an announcement mid-day today so we’ll see.

      Sadly, my book group just read Giant of the Senate by Franken and we spent our whole last book group praising this man. I feel duped.

      • Mamavalveeta03 says:

        I’m very sad. As a former resident of MN for 5 years, I took pride in our firm Blue State status in the increasingly red Midwest.

  4. Candy says:

    This whole issue of women revealing heinous sexual behavior on the part of male bosses has spurred a lot of discussion among my women friends. In one case, 6 of us met for dinner and 4 revealed truly horrible incidents from their past. In some cases, they had told other supervisors or HR and gotten nowhere (big surprise; so many enablers). In other cases, they were so humiliated, they told no one. I hope the recent events will prove a turning point, but I’m cynically pessimistic.
    And I’m with Heather — the worst bosses I’ve had have been women, where the harassment isn’t physical, it’s mental.

  5. S. says:

    I have to say I’m comforted to see other people feeling like there’s something amiss with the Franken resignation. I do not want ever to be anything but on the side of the women who have been made to suffer by all these creeps, but there’s also a part of me worrying about creating false equivalences (Weinstein-Trump-Lauer-Moore = Franken?) and doing real damage in the process.

    Nothing in Franken’s work in the Senate suggests a hostile view of women (contra, for example, Matt Lauer with Hilary Clinton at the debate). The opposite, actually. I personally have not sorted all this out yet, and I’m wondering if maybe collectively we haven’t quite gotten there either.

    • DeDe says:

      Well, sometimes men who seem to walk the walk in public are something else entirely in private. I’ve experienced this personally. There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance when it happens, and it can be hard to process, but that doesn’t mean the guy is innocent. And as Julie Lee mentioned above, with Franken there is photo evidence.

  6. Gables girl says:

    I think this a gender domination issue that nearly 100% of the time affects women. Am I missing something? Every male I know wants to blame Democrats or Republicans. Are they tone deaf or am i? I do say that if we hand’t elected DT this would not be happening with such voracity. Thanks DT!

  7. Mamavalveeta03 says:

    Thank you for John Oliver! I’m so glad that he pushed Hoffman for an answer…which was totally unsatisfactory, btw.

    I’m wondering if Melania got her inspiration for. “spooky hallway” from the Tree Cathedral. 😉

  8. Maggie says:

    I am disappointed to see so many of my female progressive friends defending Franken today and even claiming some kind of conspiracy against him. To me, they are as bad as the Moore supporters. Look, we have almost as much proof of Franken’s misconduct (the photo) as we do of Moore (the yearbooks). And regardless of whether this means our guys resign and their guys don’t, we have to be a party that has principles. I don’t want to have to stoop to their level at the expense of gender equality.

    I do think that we need to treat each case differently based on the type of allegation. There have been a few allegations against men lately that have been kind of ridiculous, things like, “he talks over me too much.” I mean, come on, I know that guys have a reputation for doing it more, but women also talk over men, and these are trainable things that still fall in the category of acceptable blunders. Not everything requires resignation. But what Franken did cross the line..

  9. Viajera says:

    Well… the photo. To me, it was not at all clear that he was actually groping her.

    That may not matter to some of you, but it does to me. Assuming he did *not,* I will still say, It *was* stupid and immature … but he was not in office then. And I get a distinct whiff of someone wanting her 15 minutes. Oh wait, am I not supposed to notice?

    And afaik, none of these events involved his employees. HR is not an issue then.

    c.w. raises a good point — unfortunately, maybe there’s more. I for one would like to see an investigation happen, and I hope he changes his mind and toughs it out. Let’s get all the dirt out, and look at it. And then we will be informed and able to make a sound decision.

    Meanwhile I’m pretty disappointed with our women Senators. I would have thought they could handle it better. I may even make some (utterly useless I guess) phone calls tomorrow.

  10. y.k. says:

    I hate to see Franken go but how else do you have a leg to stand on when calling out [insert name du jour] ?

    But I wish Franken had been more forceful calling out Trump & Moore in his resignation speech. It’s helluva lot more than ironic that Trump is still President & Moore looks like he’s on his way in while Franken,
    who’s passed legislation good for women – is out.

  11. Elle says:

    ‘m sorry if you are sad about Franken, but this shit has to be kicked to the curb at every level. Women bear the burden daily for the crap men do. We don’t even realize how we’ve normalized fearing for our own safety! By and large, men have the power and make the money. What happens to Moore vs. Franken is *not* the point. Every man who has an offense on the sexual harassment spectrum should be taken to task. And those saying that these women are looking for their 15 minutes – let’s put that chauvinistic thinking to rest. I believe the women.

    • Maggie says:

      YES.^^^When all of the Bill Clinton allegations came up during the election, I thought, “Well, that was 20 odd years ago. Democrats would never support a sexual harasser/assaulter today.” But this Franken news has made it clear that a lot of democratic women will STILL make excuses and perform mental gymnastics in order to justify keeping a guy in power if they like him enough. It’s upsetting.

    • Viajera says:

      I’m sorry, I was unclear. I don’t disbelieve that Wheeden (sp?) was upset about what happened to her during a skit rehearsal, nor am I without any sympathy.

      It is just that I believe that incident wasn’t serious enough to cause a group of senators to persuade someone to step down, many many years later and after he apologized. I think for something like that, an apology should have been the end of it. If people want to call me an apologist, go ahead – we’ll have to disagree.

      For the record, I am against skits for this reason. All skits should be outlawed.

      However, I also blame Franken for getting rolled. Were I am Minnesotan, or whatever they call themselves, I’d be passing around a petition.

      • Viajera says:

        You know, I thought about it some more and I do think I was unfair, in that I had been assuming – without checking — that Wheeden was the one who put out the photograph.

        This is because I think whoever took that photo and then made it available to the press did her a much greater injury than Franken, since he was just doing something stupid, and felt sorry about it at least. Whereas, putting that photo on the internet is pre-meditated. Deliberate.

        And I thought of a good punishment for Al – he should have to let her put him in her holiday card, dressed up in a silly outfit, and maybe getting fake-spanked. Well, unless that’s too weird. Just some way for her to get her own back.

  12. S. says:

    I just want to be clear, even though the moment has passed: While my most gender-based harassment at work came from a female boss I am in NO way against women in boss positions. This one particular woman had no business being a boss because she was stupid and incompetent, as people sometimes are. But: I have always advocated for the promotion of women into supervisory and leadership positions — sometimes because they are women AND would be great at the work, and sometimes just because they are women and at least no worse than the male candidate. The world would be a 1000x better place if there were more women bosses in it. There is no doubt in my mind about this.

  13. E says:

    Instead of all the names I would rather have their faces out there. Maybe it’ll look like a most wanted poster but the visual is such more powerful than a name and their job title.

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